Season 1, Ep. 3: Murder in Miniature

In this month’s episode, Layla and I have a chat about Frances Glessner Lee, her crime scene dollhouses, and what they did for the field of forensic science.

Show Notes:

References and Links:

18 Tiny Deaths: The Untold Story of the Woman who Invented Modern Forensics by Bruce Goldfarb

See the accompanying photos for this episode on Instagram: @makinghistorypodcast

Episode Transcript:

MH 3

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to episode three of the Making History Podcast. My name is Nikki Schreiner, and you might know me from pin cut studio.com, where I am on YouTube and my website and all the other places as pin cut. So, so that's why you're here. Welcome. I'm glad you find us over. Found us over here at Making History.

This is a podcast where we discuss. Various historical topics related to crafts, sewing, quilting, and other made things and hobbies. And today I have back with me and my daughter, Layla. Mm-hmm. Hi, Layla. And I have history with today's topic, which I'll just tell you right now. We are going to talk about Francis Glessner Lee, who is considered the mother of forensic science, but she is most famous for creating miniature.

Crime scenes. It's so cool. I know. It's so cool. This topic first came across my radar a few years ago when I, on a whim, started a blog. Must've been in like an A DH ADHD frenzy. I started an Agatha Christie themed blog, [00:01:00] and that's the reason I had this topic saved because I don't, I don't even know like where I first found it, but I was like, what?

Someone made murder scene dollhouses. I have to know everything. And the podcast gave me the perfect opportunity to do that. So Layla. Tell us your history with miniatures. Um, well, I was a lover of tiny things. Mm-hmm. And a child was, was, yeah, I still am. And I didn't have the space to make full-size houses, so I had to make them small.

I don't even know, like, everything about miniatures just fell outta my mind. Okay. So. I am remembering in our Virginia House, we've had a lot of houses from military. Your dad went into your room one time, he's like, what the heck is all of this cardboard? No. Like my froggy stuff was my jam. I was making those like cereal box, like fold out houses.

Yes. That you would look, make, look like, um, books. Put them on shelf. Shout out to my froggy stuff on YouTube. If you have a child who's into like Barbies, she shows you how to make everything. She was an icon. Like she was so cool for a [00:02:00] while. My. My personal YouTube was just full of your guys' stuff. I know, because even that one, I thought stuff was a big one.

Oh my gosh. Okay. But even in more recent years, like you've bought the miniature sets from Hobby Lobby. Yes. I have a, I have a little mouse that my mom got me for Christmas. Its, yeah, its a male egg mouse and. I, I want to get him like a little piano or like a secretary desk to sit on. Um, I've knit him sweaters?

Yes. Just he sits on my dresser the other day. We're watching TV and she just whips out this little tiny, my like mouse sweater. It's a little sweater. He's like three, four inches tall. Mm-hmm. Little baby. And he sits on my dresser. He's very cute. Yeah. So you also had my dollhouse from when I was young for a long time.

I did. We finally passed that along. 'cause like I said, we keep, we kept moving and it. Doll doll houses are giant pain in the butt to move. Yeah. And it was massive and like kind of scary. Yeah. It was quite a fit. But my dad made me that dollhouse. It was just like a hobby lobby model that you put together.

And I got it for Christmas. He made my sister one and then he made me one a year or two later. And my sister and I used to just, [00:03:00] let's make things for our doll houses. Yeah. And we would make like the little clay food and we'd make furniture and decorate them. It's fun. When you guys were little, you and Natalie?

Mm-hmm. And Kelby, but he didn't care. I made you guys a Barbie house. Mm-hmm. This is probably most one of my most epic DIYs. Oh, it was so cute. I bought one of those like $30 Pressboard bookshelves from Target. And then while you guys were in bed every night, I worked on it for weeks. Mm-hmm. And I wallpapered it with scrapbook paper.

I made windows with windows frames in like cloud paper. Outside the windows. Yeah. Every room had different carpet, which was like felt sheets or whatever. And you guys played with that for years? I think we had that until like Utah. Mm-hmm. Is when we finally were like, we can't anymore. Yeah. I remember in Hawaii, all the friends were always in your guys' closet playing with Oh yeah.

With um. Ever after High Dolls. Yeah. We had it decorated. So clearly this is a topic that's close to our hearts. Yes. We also love murder shows and so like Yes. [00:04:00] Murder shows. Dollhouse is, hello. Yes. Like I just said, I am an Agatha Christie Super fan. Yes. Like super fan. And so murder mysteries, but the lighthearted kind, I don't actually listen to like True Crime podcasts very much because there comes a point where it's just like too much.

Yeah, yeah. But like Monk psych. Yes. Death in Paradise. Good one. Currently. Currently it's Elsbeth. Currently it's, yeah, Elsbeth. Elsbeth, yeah. I don't know how to say her name. Elsbeth. Elbe. Okay. So Layla, let me tell you everything I've learned about Francis Lesner Lee and mini crime scenes. It's been hard to keep in what I've been learning.

'cause I've, the book I'm referencing today is called 18 Tiny Deaths, the Untold Story of the Woman Who Invented Modern Forensics. It is by Bruce Goldfarb. Mm-hmm. And this reads like a really, really interesting history. Like it's, it takes a good writer. To make history this interesting. Yeah. He also made the cutest Reddit post.

I was looking for pictures for this. You did? I didn't. I think I sent it to you. Cutest Reddit post. He was like, I wrote this book, like if you [00:05:00] guys have any questions and everybody like asked questions in the comments. It was so cute. Fun. Yeah. I forgot to look at the Reddit post. Yeah, this book was really, really good.

I was riveted, so this episode was easy to study for. So I'll link to this in the show notes for sure. Oh, also, we always have an accompanying Instagram post with photos. You'll definitely wanna see the photos for this. And I'll also put some links in the show notes to where you can see the crime scenes and everything and pictures of her also.

But the, the Instagram is just at making history podcast. Layla manages that for me. She does. I do. It's very fun. Where would I be with how you, Layla? So France Lesner was born on October 2nd, 1871. Her parents were named John, Jacob and Francis. She was named after her mom. Oh my gosh. Does he have a relative named Jingleheimer Schmidt?

Maybe. This is the John Jacob. Oh my gosh. Maybe it's him. Oh, Jingleheimer Schmidt fame. Okay. And she had an older brother named George. A lot of people are named after other people in this story, so she went by Fanny as a child because her mom was Francis. Mm-hmm. And John Jacob, her [00:06:00] dad, he got in, they moved to Chicago when they were early married, and he got into the agricultural equipment business.

Mm-hmm. And became a millionaire that way by the time he was 40. So Fannie and George grew up extremely wealthy. Yeah. The world was their oyster. There were no nose. When it came to things they wanted to try or pur or pursue. Mm-hmm. When I was studying for this, I told Layla, like they were into so many different things.

They were like us, but with money. Like, mom, I wanna try this. Sorry we're broke. No, we're not broke. But like for them, they could do anything. Yeah. They were also homeschooled icons. Layla's homeschooled. I'm homeschooled. So, well, it was, she graduated. We have always homeschooled. They had. Hobby after hobby, after hobby.

They were extremely creative, and not just the kids, but the parents also, like the parents did everything from art to music, to book clubs, all kinds of crazy stuff. Well, this is the kind of childhood that she had. When Fannie and George were children, their dad [00:07:00] had an epic house built in Chicago. Mm-hmm.

Layla, Natalie and I, my other daughter Natalie, we just took a trip to Chicago 'cause Natalie had some ballet thing up there. And so we went for the weekend, well, we only stayed one night. Mm-hmm. But we were staying down the street from the Lesner house. Gorgeous. And so on our way out, we drove by and took some pictures.

Mm-hmm. And it's really funny because he designed this house. So that it was like the business in the front party in the back. Mm-hmm. The front facade was very castle like and flat and ugly. Mm-hmm. But the back opened into this like amazing courtyard. The house was 18,000 square feet. That's insane, which is, I can't even wrap my mind around that.

And a lot of their friends and neighbors said it was really ugly and weird roasted. But John, Jacob, he really just didn't care what other people thought. And so here's some of the quotes people said about it. It expresses an idea, but I don't like the idea. Oh my gosh. Or it looks like a far a fort. It looks like an old jail.

There is [00:08:00] not a single pretty thing about it. How do you get in it? That sounds like a TikTok comment section. Yeah. You have astonished everyone with your strange house and then this one. It is like themselves, plain and substantial without and sweet and homelike spirit within, which is kind of sweet. So this house still exists on Prairie Avenue in Chicago and it's now the Lesner House Museum.

Mm-hmm. And that's what he wanted to have happen to it after his death. Yeah. Was for it to be preserved. And for a picture of the architect, you always remain there. Mm-hmm. And when you take the virtual tour online mm-hmm. That big guy in the portrait, that's him. That's him. It's still there. Dang. I was like, oh my gosh.

They really kept his wishes. It's too, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So the Lesner House had this school room where Fannie and George and their friends could just come and go. They did have like a tutor. Mm-hmm. But it was really just, we call it in the homeschooling world, delight led learning. And so, I mean, back then they didn't have, you know, today the schools tell you you need to know this and you know this.

Yeah. [00:09:00] And everyone's like, along, there's standards that need met. That wasn't the world back then. And so whatever they wanted to pursue. They were able to pursue music and arts were huge for them. For the G Lesner family, they were very curious people, true leaders in the community. Um, they gave tons of money to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, which comes into our story later.

Okay. They started clubs, classes. Dad learned a bunch of languages. Mom made jewelry, started a book club, which they made jokes, um, that it was more of a gossip club. That, and then, so cool Little George, her brother. He had a fire signal repeater installed mm-hmm. In their school room with lines to seven of his friends' homes.

So whenever the fire signal in town went off, him and his friends would all go chase it down. That's so funny. And they called it George's Fire Brigade and they would pretend to be firemen and George would take along his camera and he actually became a really good amateur photographer. Okay. So they also had, little [00:10:00] George had some serious seasonal allergies.

So they had a summer house built in New Hampshire, I think. I, I don't know. Wait, what? What's the city anyway? Anyway, in New England. Okay. They called it the rocks. The rocks actually also Massachusetts. So they had this summer home, and so then they would spend their, well, new England is like all of those little states up there.

Oh, no way. Okay, cut that out. She's homeschooled. So they also spent a lot of time at their summer house. Mm-hmm. The rocks where they camped, fished, did all the outdoorsy things that you wouldn't expect really wealthy, socialized to do. Yeah. And so anyway, Fannie and George had an amazing childhood, of course funded by endless.

Money. Yeah. And that comes into the story later too. That's why I keep emphasizing how rich they were. Also the, her first foray into miniatures was at that summer house when the architect of that house made her a little log cabin to match it. That's so cute. He made it with a kitchen and a wood burning stove.

And so she played with miniatures. Yeah. From when she was little. That's so cute. [00:11:00] She also had a very early interest in medicine. It started with, um, an obsession with mummies. I think a lot of kids have that face. Oh, of course. I know I did. Yeah. Anatomical drawings. And then one time she had to get her tonsils removed.

She was absolutely fascinated by the entire thing. Oh no. When I was little, she's texting, so I'll give you a story, a tale. I, my granny took me to Barnes and Noble on like a little date, and I, she was like, you can pick out anything, like any book, any whatever. And I picked this like. Plastic. It was like a plastic shell of a person that you could crack open.

I remember that. And it had like rubber organs and stuff all in it. And you could take them all out and like, you could stretch the like, intestines out and texture were like those, um, stick to the window type things. Yeah. And there was like a little, a little rubber liver. And like all the good stuff. I think she thought I was insane.

But I have a picture of me posing with my, that's what she wanted. I'm like holding a gallbladder or something. And I'm smiling at the camera. You were very sciencey. I was sciencey. [00:12:00] Lela said a lot of phases. You remind me of Fanny. Well, you remind me of myself also. I remind myself of Su Sue Heck, and I'm just doing a little, doing a little bit of everything.

Okay. But my kids learned early on that. Um, I would hardly ever say no if what they were asking me for was like craft or art supplies. Oh yeah. So if everything wanted to go somewhere, they would pick Hobby Lobby. 'cause I would always buy whatever it probably was they wanted. Yeah. And then especially like if she's, so, if she's sewing, like she's gonna need something eventually.

So we're going there eventually Anyway. That's funny, you do wander in sometimes. So I was wondering if you need to go to Hobby Lobby? Yeah. And like perfect timing. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Strategic. Okay. After she got her tonsils removed, I, I think this was when she was like a teenager. Yeah. She started accompanying local doctors to like visits and stuff.

Icon I know. And also icons of her parents. Yeah. To allow her to do that. 'cause this is the 18 hundreds. Mm-hmm. This is not when women were going into fields like medicine. Mm-hmm. So her brother [00:13:00] George went to Harvard. Okay. For law school. Mm-hmm. And he met another George named George s McGrath. I'm just gonna call him McGrath.

Okay. And they were besties. Aw. And Fanny of course, became friends with him also. Mm-hmm. This was never a romantic friendship. Okay. He was a lifelong bachelor and so, but they became friends and they met up again later in life, which you'll learn about. But they went to the World's Fair together in Chicago.

Cool. This book is so interesting 'cause they were living in Chicago in. All of the wild and big. Yeah. And like explosive things happen in Chicago to make it the huge, huge city that it is today. Mm-hmm. So when she was, had graduated, she came of age in 1896 and married, blew it, Lee, who was 10 years older than her.

He was a lawyer. Okay. And they had three kids. Cute. Their marriage, however, did not last. Oh, she is, she was described as a very formidable person and she was also exceedingly motivated. She was never idle and always looking for the next thing to do and accomplish. Yeah. And I think I can relate to that.

Yeah. [00:14:00] And when you're that kind of person, it's hard for you to understand people who don't have that. No. Yeah. Like, what do you mean? You just want to, you just wanna sit there, sit back and, yeah. Relax for the rest of your life. What's going on? Wait, wait. Yeah, so they didn't exactly understand one another, actually, her son later said that her father never said a negative word about her at all.

Oh. But after their third child was born, he moved out. They lived pretty separate lives. Um, they still co-parented and everything, but they did eventually divorce and he actually found someone else and they lived Oh. Had a very long and happy okay, cute marriage after that. And she never remarried. Mm. And so she, by the time her children.

We're older, she was feeling very restless because she had been so wealthy and had everything handed to her. She felt like she really hadn't earned anything in life. Yeah. And so she had several years where she was pretty restless and, but she was still raising children. So she got into like needle work in the arts.

She sewed all her kids clothes and became very [00:15:00] crafty. She had a huge candy making phase at the rocks, the, or at her New Hampshire house. So. Like again. Yeah. She just keeps like going on these hyper fixation. Yeah, yeah. Like crafts, um, eras in her life. But she still had not really found her thing, even though her interest in medicine continued.

But World War I came along and she. Wait, no, sorry. Go back. Rewind one thing before I talk about World War I for her mother's 65th birthday. Oh. She wanted to make her an epic gift and her mother, like I said, they were very, very invested in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Mm-hmm. They were very into the arts and the orchestra members were like friends.

They literally had them over for dinner and private concerts, and they were dang friends with the entire orchestra. For her 65th birthday, Frances made her mom. A miniature version of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Symphony Orchestra. I'm gonna show Layla this picture. Oh my gosh. Cute. So at first glance, it just looks like an [00:16:00] orchestra, but every single orchestra member was modeled to look like the member himself.

Some of them sat for drawings for her. She had the leader of the orchestra hand write that music. So on every musician's music stand is actual sheet music from the actual songs that they played. That's so cool. She had, she obtained an entire set of miniature instruments. There's just like no detail down to everyone's facial hair.

Yeah. There were no women in the orchestra back then. They were all men lame. Oh, they did this guy dirty. Look how far back his hairline is. It probably really was like that. That's bile. They have their little tuxedos on with their little flowers and mustaches. It's incredible. Bro. So this was her first foray into Yeah.

Like miniatures. And you can tell how obsessive she was about it. The scale was one to 12, which means one inch equals one foot. Yeah. And she stuck to that meticulously. Mm. She's like, no, nothing will be the wrong size of, which is incredible. Okay. So World War I comes along. [00:17:00] And finally she finds something to do with herself.

When she got married, her father gifted her a house on Prairie Avenue also, and also one to George, her brother. Cute. And so the whole family now lived part of the year on Prairie Avenue. Mm-hmm. And she started hosting Navy sailors in her home. Okay. This was common in World War I like anybody who had a large house, I don't know.

I'm sure a lot of listeners have seen Downton Abbey. I didn't get through the whole series. I couldn't handle it. So much drama, but I do remember a time when they were asked to host soldiers in their house. Okay. I mean, they were in Britain, but Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, same kind of thing. And she really found some purpose in that.

So then. She, this is where the Chicago, Chicago Art Institute comes in. Mm-hmm. Which we just visited. Yeah. So I wish I would've known beforehand that she like stood on that ground and did this. Yeah. She wanted to do something entertaining, so she started advertising for the Fingertip Theater. She [00:18:00] started advertising like, come to this event.

The stage is two feet by three feet, but it's going to have acrobatics, it's gonna have this, it's gonna have that, and all of this. And nobody really knew what they were going Yeah. For, but everybody bought tickets. What it was, was she had created a miniature theater. Oh, and then for her two fingers, her pointer and middle fingers, she had created and sewn costumes with little ballet shoes and all these different costumes, and she put on a fingertip theater.

Show literally Fingertip theater. Yes. That's so cute. Yes. And all of the money she donated to an organization in France for displaced children who'd been displaced from the war. Mm-hmm. And it made a ton of money. 'cause I'm sure it was great. Like we think of this and we're like, that is so silly. But she was so smart and creative.

Yeah. I wanna see it. I bet. It was amazing. Absolutely. Yeah. So I thought that was so cute and funny. Yeah, girl, I forgot to look up a picture of it, but it's a good thing that I didn't do this when I was younger, like didn't know about her when I was younger. 'cause I would've been. You would've been making crime scene [00:19:00] dollhouses.

I would've been making crime scene dollhouses. I would've been making little fingertip theaters. Like, do you remember that time for April Fool's Day that you made the fake turd? Yep. I baked up a little, a little fake dog turd. No, it looked like a human turd. It was big. Thank you. I, I appreciate that. It looked so legit.

So, so real. I put it in our bathroom and tried to frame my siblings and it didn't work well with, I remember Natalie though, you put it outside the bathroom door when she was in there. Mm-hmm. And she came out and she goes, Layla? Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Gosh. It looked so real. I was super impressed. That was so funny. That was so random. Where did that come? Okay, so now we're gonna get into the forensics part of her story. So let's, before we get into that, let's take a quick break. As you may have noticed, this podcast is free of sponsorships, meaning I'm not taking this break to read advertisements to you.

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Cut. So, and gift us a little something there. And I do indeed promise to take Layla out to coffee. All these links will be in the show notes below. So [00:21:00] let's get back to the show. Okay, let's get back right back into it. She, Frances did start actually working. Because, you know, she was still searching for purpose and she worked at a place called Wendell House.

She became the resident manager there. Her kids were older by this point. She was looking for something to occupy herself with that she felt would help her to like earn that place in society, you know? Mm-hmm. Instead of just being. Rich a freeloader. Yeah. So this place was for recovering servicemen who were just kind of looking for what they were going to do next, like coming back from the war.

A lot of them had been so young when they went and then they come back and they're like, they might have injuries. They don't know what to do. Yeah. And so this place was like a recovery and figure it out type of place. And she was the resident manager there. She was great at it. Okay, so let's transition into her later life.

And to do that we need to talk about the state of police work back then. When it came to deaths that were unexplained. This is not a science podcast. I will be pretty basic, but I do recommend everybody read this book, 18 [00:22:00] Tiny Deaths because I'm doing like the most basic like introduction to all of this stuff, but it is super interesting.

So back then they worked on a coroner system. They would just elect local officials. So the person who dealt with an unexplained death did not need to be a doctor. Did not need to be a scientist. Mm. It could be anybody. Sometimes they were doctors, but they mostly weren't. It could be like, you know, the trash management person or Oh my gosh.

Could literally be anybody who wanted the job. Mm-hmm. And it did pay it. Obviously corruption was rampant. Yeah. And also they didn't know how to deal with a scene of a death like they do today. Thanks to Francis. Yeah. So they would trample all over the crime scene and they would just take things at face value.

So, oh, it looks like this guy had a hard attack, so that's what I'm putting on the thing. And now you get paid $10 and everybody moves on. Yeah. And in reality, maybe his wife poisoned him, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they just didn't really care about that. So obviously [00:23:00] a lot of deaths went unsolved. A lot of clear murders went unsolved.

Yeah. And a lot of people were convicted of murder when they were innocent. And back then it wasn't like a long. Legal process like it is now. No. They were like, you did it and they take you out back firing squad and you're gone. Yeah. It wasn't like, there wasn't this like huge justice system. Mm-hmm. I know our justice system is extremely flawed, but I am also really glad that it's come this far.

Yeah. That were here at least. Right. So, and then also the police officers were not, they were hired for strength and fearlessness. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily for their intelligence. So there weren't like smart guy detectives and stuff. No. Um, no, Jake Peralta's working on cases. Right. I wonder if there would be Agatha Christie books if there weren't Francis g Lessner Lee.

Oh, interesting. Because. Agatha Chris and all the golden age riders mm-hmm. Came after this and they were into the police procedurals and stuff. Hmm. So anyway, [00:24:00] this started coming to an end in certain states by the 1910s, but actually some of them still have the corner system. Oh. Um, the first to abolish this system and move to medical examiners instead of coroners was Boston, because this is kind of a gruesome story.

I'm sorry. Oh, no, it's okay. They found an infant dumped into a trash can. Mm. And they solved the case and everybody got paid coroner and the the piers, they get paid. And then instead of putting the case to rest, they then deposited that infant into a different trash can and they got paid three more times.

Oh my gosh. So like, this is the kind of corruption we're talking about when you're just paying people for not Yeah. Not doing anything. Right. And so. That's when Boston said enough. Mm-hmm. We need a medical professional and so enter the field of legal medicine. Mm-hmm. Now we call it I think like forensic science, but back then it was called legal medicine.

And so you remember [00:25:00] George McGrath, her friend George's, or her brother, George's friend George. He was a medical examiner in Boston. He was a frustrated medical examiner. At this point in time, Francis is probably in her thirties, forties. Mm-hmm. Something like that. So they're a little bit older now, middle aged.

And so, and he is very, he studied in Europe. He's very well educated. Yeah. But he was very frustrated because there was no funding for basic necessities. He had no, he had to beg for an ambulance to transport bodies. Mm-hmm. Everything. The office was totally disheveled, disorganized records were everywhere.

If there were any. And he was like, we need to get the system to be a system. Yeah. Like a repeatable. System so that we can actually do a good job at this. Mm-hmm. But nobody was on board. They just treated this as if it were just some extra Yeah. Nobody was giving it the importance that we now think that it should have.

Mm-hmm. And so what happened was he became ill. Mm. Francis also became ill, we don't know what these illnesses were, but they [00:26:00] convalesce together at Ooh, Philip's house, which is like a fancy place to recover from illnesses for people who have money to do that. Oh, okay, okay, okay. And they both happened to be there at the same time.

Oh my gosh. That isn't fate. So they spent weeks. Mm-hmm. Just talking about his career because she was still so interested in anatomy and science and medicine and she was never allowed to go to Harvard 'cause the Harvard didn't accept women. Mm-hmm. And also, it just wasn't something that women. Did. Yeah, they did not be go into the medical field.

Let's pause. Don't you wish that every time you get sick you could go to one of these fancy places to be taking care? No. Literally like gimme a bed. I wish that like can there be like a period house? Like in the Bible? Like, yes. In the Bible. Women got to go away from everybody on their period to a separate tent.

Like take me to Maine. I'll go to my period. That'd be so nice. I feel like when some people read that part of the Bible, they're like, that's rude. No, but no, like, dang. Wouldn't you love the monthly break? Absolutely. [00:27:00] Okay, bro. Anyway. Anyway, back on topic. Okay, so. They talked a lot about his career and legal medicine.

There's a quote I want to read to you, and he was just saying, I'm still trying to find something better than a diagram and a photograph to show a jury the exact spot where the body was found in proper relation to the stairs, the stove or the window. That's the hardest thing in the world to get across.

He was saying, I'm trying to explain what happened to the jury. They're not really taking it seriously. They don't have a good visual. Mm-hmm. And she said to him, you mean like a model? Oh, would that help if it were in the correct scale, maybe a doll or a dummy, dressed exactly like the victim and all the other details in the correct place.

So this was the ding, ding, ding. First inkling of an idea. It would be several years before she made it happen though. So Francis, she was a person of action and she had the funds to make those things happen. Yes, ma'am. She said to McGrath. What do you want to have happen with all this extensive, [00:28:00] extensive knowledge and research that you have amassed and written down in books, et cetera?

He said, what I want was my material to be introduced to Harvard so that they can properly have and train a department of legal medicine. Yeah. He wants this to become an official elevated topic, and so what do you think Francis did? She paid my money. She went directly to Harvard. Yeah, ma'am. She's like, okay.

Then she went to Harvard and the funny part is, is that she just manipulated them with her money. Mm-hmm. For decades. Yeah. Even when she became older and they really were kind of eye rolling her away. She would just threaten them with a loss of funds, LOL, or to remove them from her will, and they'd be like, well, okay.

Then she did get McGrath installed at Harvard. He began, he began setting up a decent lab. [00:29:00] He started training, and at the time there were a lot of people. Learning to be doctors. Mm. But he started training the, some of them to become medical examiners. Yeah. To train them in pathology. Mm. So pathology includes things like knowing how long a person has been dead, like lividity.

Mm-hmm. Of like, and how the blood settles in the skin when someone's been laying there for a long time. How to identify people actually. Do you know how they identify burn victims? Burn victims. Mm-hmm. By their teeth, right? Yes. By their teeth. Mm-hmm. Guess who first thought of that? Francis. Francis and McGrath.

Yes. Icons. Which I think is crazy. 'cause what happened was there was a huge theater fire in Chicago. Mm. I think it's the one of the biggest, like the most deadly really building fires in American history. Yeah. So lots and lots of victims. Mm. Who were burned. Yeah. And they, that's when the teeth, records teeth thing they thought, couldn't we.

They landed on the fact that they could identify people with their Yeah. Dental records. Well, I mean, and everyone's teeth were so jacked up [00:30:00] back then, like they weren't braces, they were distinctive. Right. They don't even need x-rays. Distinctive is much nicer than jacked up. That's so funny. Yeah. 'cause you could identify their teeth probably from a photograph.

Yeah. It'd be like, oh yeah, he's got a wonky right tooth. It's like, yeah. So that science continued to progress, but they're the ones who really. Got that seed. Mm-hmm. Growing. So she started raising public support. Also. She would have her driver take her to ladies events to speak about pathology and legal medicine.

She would set up exhibits at the World's Fair demonstrating like crime scenes and stuff. Mm. And she knew that public awareness. I think this is a mistake a lot of people make now in trying to, because they're not a business, so they're like, why would I need marketing? Mm-hmm. But. The public's caring about something can really do so much for the cause.

That's why we have, like my mom, your granny worked for Muscular Dystrophy Association. Mm-hmm. And I remember her telling me that the telethons, you're probably too young to remember these, but a lot of the listeners will remember those MDA [00:31:00] telethons on TV every year. And she said like they barely break even from those, but it did so much to raise awareness.

Yeah. And continue the funds incoming because people were even aware 'cause of how. Mm-hmm. How else would they even know about muscular history? Yeah. So anyway, she also, she paid Harvard off and she paid McGrath's salary without him knowing my gosh. She said, I will pay the salary of this person if you install him when he needed new, a bigger space.

She finagled her way into getting that. That's so funny. Getting them to give him that. She funded tons of these programs with her own money. She also had had an uncle that died and left her everything, so even, even on top of her dad's. Dang, yeah. Stipend, like she's, she was doing well. Mm-hmm. She eventually did sell her Prairie Avenue, Chicago house, and she was living in New England and so she was obviously formidable.

Yeah. You really couldn't tell her no. Mm-hmm. Money buys everything she wants at this point. McGrath ended up dying in 1938. Oh. And [00:32:00] then, so the department did change over time and there was a new pathologist named Moritz who she continued to have a long-term relationship with. Yeah. But she was so, so focused on this one cause that it was hard for her to understand when someone else wanted to focus on more than just this one class.

Yeah. Does that make sense? Uhhuh? Have you ever met somebody that's so obsessed? Mm-hmm. And you can't, like they can't. Talk about anything else. Yes. And they also want you to care as much as they do. Every homeschooler I talk to about Lord of the Rings, Justin? Yes. About Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter and Calculus.

Yes. But those are the things that make them successful. You're so right. Eventually. Mm-hmm. But there's some awkward there. I'm work for them someday, so That's so funny. So Harvard's program did slowly but surely grow, and over many years, Lee kept studying and learning and she became a true expert despite not having any college education, she, she knew so much more than anyone who did because she was such a self learner.

Yeah. [00:33:00] She even wrote an anatomy book. It was a poetry book though, and she wrote the cutest and funniest poems. The poems were so cute. It was like owed to my spleen. Things like that. That's so funny. I forgot to mark that page. And then as she learned, Harvard's program was, was growing. Although it was frustrating because even still people were not taking the field seriously.

No. They had a severe lack of bodies, which you need bodies to study. You need Oh, like cadavers? Yes. Because they're trying not only. Were they trying to teach people how to treat a crime scene? Mm-hmm. They were also trying to teach people how to treat the bodies. Yeah. So she did not let herself get frustrated.

She just knew that the progress would be really slow, and honestly, she needed all of those years to learn what she knew. Mm-hmm. And so. Um, she also started developing an extensive library at Harvard. Mm-hmm. The library of legal medicine. She would not allow Harvard even up until her death to combine that library with their regular library.

I, she handpicked, she funded it. She named it [00:34:00] after George McGrath. It's still called the George McGrath Library, I think. Dang, dang. Well, it was until after her death and they had just combined it anyway. Rude. I know. She was very protective of it. Mm-hmm. And so they just kept plotting along and she said that legal, here's a quote.

Legal medicine may be likened to a three legged stool, the three legs being medicine, the law and police. If any one of these is weak, the stool will collapse. And she spent the rest of her life developing those three stool legs. And so she's gone after medicine. Mm-hmm. And they went after the law because they started presenting their findings in court, even though sometimes they would be allowed to examine a body and they would find.

The person guilty or not guilty, and they would either acquit or convict the person anyway. They just were not being taken seriously. I think. Gosh, so much of that still happens scientifically. Oh yeah. I mean, we just watched The Fugitive and I'm like, dang, like I keep thinking of that. Seriously. Well, he got convicted because of corruption.

Yeah. [00:35:00] Yeah. In the movie. And the true story. 'cause we read about the true story. Yeah. After, so she had already tackled medicine in the law. Next she's gonna tackle the police. Mm-hmm. And this is where finally she finds some success. The police are lapping it up. They are eager. The funny thing is, is that in at the rocks, her.

Her mountain house, she had a recce radio receiver installed and somehow she accidentally got looped into the Virginia State Police Dispatch. Oh my gosh. I've done that before. So she was like, yeah, it's like people now who have like a well with, we had like walkie talkies 'cause we moved from Colorado to Virginia and so we had walkie talkies and so I would play with them in Virginia and sometimes I would, we were on base and I would like.

Hook up and it'd be like Sergeant, and they were like, oh my gosh. So Army people talking. Not with the mps. Hopefully. No, hopefully not. So she started listening to these police, it's pa, it's Virginia, not even a state that she lived in. And she started to feel like they were friends. She knew about their wives.

That's so funny. [00:36:00] And she would just follow the state police news, you know? So then after that she decided that she loves the police. Mm-hmm. Has a huge soft spot for them. She did not treat them like the adults that society thought they were. She said, we can educate these men. Mm-hmm. Because remember they hired police for their brute strength and courage.

Yeah. Not necessarily for their ingenious qualities, but she started a relationship with the New Hampshire State Police where she did live. Mm-hmm. And they loved her. And she, um, got really close with the police captain. And eventually, actually several years later, he commissioned her as a police captain.

Oh my gosh. And some people thought, well, it's just honorary, but he actually said no, actually. Mm-hmm. She is a very qualified mm-hmm. Officer. This more qualified than UW. Yeah. So she started her relationship there and she started holding educational conferences for the police officers, and they loved it.

I don't know if you've ever had a job, Layla. You probably have, I have where I was just being [00:37:00] underutilized and I was bored. This didn't last long for me, but it is so much more fun and fulfilling to work in a job that keeps your mind going. Yeah. And I, I wonder if some of these officers were like, yes.

Something for me to do. Something to do. Yeah. Yes. So she actually created. The position of homicide detective, oh my gosh. What we now call homicide detective. Mm-hmm. She said, we need specialization. We need people who know how to treat a body. Mm-hmm. We need people who know how not to destroy crime scene, and we need to train these police officers to go into a crime scene and observe what they are seeing without any foregone conclusions.

And so about the time that World War II was coming, she had the idea again to make the dollhouses. Mm-hmm. The miniature crime scenes. The funny thing is that you know how she was so fixated on detail? Mm-hmm. But this was World War II and rations were in place and she just could not obtain certain things.

This was the first time in her life [00:38:00] that she was being told, I'm sorry, but money cannot buy you this right now. Yeah. Oh my gosh. She really had a hard time with that. Some things, like even some little metal pieces she had to fill out like forms, like why do you need this? Yeah. So they could determine if it was a worthy use of this resource.

Oh, and she did it. She did all the things. Yeah. She had to build. She's like, this is why this is important. Yeah. So what I love about her is that she didn't let anybody discount what she was doing, just because it seems silly to some people. Yeah. You know, like she's building miniatures. Yeah. I can imagine that a lot of people were like, that's cute, honey.

Whatever keeps you busy during wartime. Yeah, okay, sure help. Okay, so these, these little scenes, they weren't necessarily all murder scenes, they were just unexplained death. Mm-hmm. She called them the nutshell studies of Unexplained Death. What they were was just a scene. That depicted exactly what had happened.

And most of them are out of her mind. Actually. Some of them I think were based on real cases. Mm. [00:39:00] But she just wanted to help the police officers go in there and look from left to right and notice every little thing. Mm-hmm. And why it could be a clue. So they weren't, she said, these are not cases to be solved.

It's just an exercise in observation. Mm. And so she spared absolutely no effort. The whisker, the whiskey bottles had actual branded labels on them. Hmm. The people were all handmade. She sewed the costumes. They, the people even were made to show what a deceased body would show. So they had the lividity and the skin issues that they would have depending on how long they had been dead.

Yeah. Like every little detail, the books are functional. The knitting projects are real cute. How do you think she did that? Oh, you knit them with like really tiny ones. You think you could do it? Yeah. Like two things I challenge you. Oh girl. Just kidding. Okay. Guess in today's money, guess how much each of these cost?

Cost her to make? Or like to make. She also hired a cabinet [00:40:00] maker to make the wood parts. Dang. Okay. Like 3000 each. In today's money? Yeah. Oh, in today's money? No, 3000 back then like 15 K. You're close. I am. Well, no. Oh. They cost 40 to $60,000. Oh my gosh. Per diorama. Is it diorama? Diorama? I don't think it matters.

Okay. Yes, each that's insane. But to Francis, this is no object. Oh, that's Penn's. Yeah, that's in today's money. But back then like that, even that's still a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. So, I'm gonna show you some of these in a minute, but finish talking about what happened with these. Okay. So she started hosting police seminars and she wanted to treat these policemen like kings.

Mm-hmm. She was such. Like this is ingenious to me because in order for the police to take themselves seriously mm-hmm. She felt they needed to see her taking them seriously. Yeah. And their leadership taking them seriously. Mm-hmm. Like, we believe you are smart. We believe you are able to learn this.

Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] And we believe this is extremely important work. Yeah. Instead of, because in the past police, like I said, they just weren't even hired for their intelligence. Yeah. So there were even, there were starting to be a few, a female police officer, so they came to her seminars. So she would set up these seminars.

The very first one, she would pay for the whole fancy dinner. Mm. She would put them up in a nice venue. Yeah. And she would train them. She had a whole curriculum developed. She was very organized, of course, and she had like whole checklists of things that she felt were important and then she would assign them each.

Like groups of them to two dioramas each. Mm. And she would tell them, study these. Write down all of the clues. Try to study them from left to right and let's just, we're not gonna like solve a case. That's not what this says. Yeah. Because there's so much more that goes into a case, including like mm-hmm.

Studying the victim, the medical side. Yeah. These police seminars completely changed. Mm. The face of police work. These seminars still continue today. The Francis Lesner Lee seminars for. [00:42:00] Legal, I don't know. I don't know what they call it, but they still legal phone. They still hold them. Wow. No longer at Harvard though, interestingly.

Oh, Harvard and Francis. Harvard and Francis. Well, Francis just, they just had a strained relationship. Yeah. And they got tired of her telling them what to do. Yeah. She got tired of them not wanting to be told what to do. And so guess how much money she left Harvard in her will. Nothing. $0. Yep. Icon. And so she broke ties with Harvard, but her legacy lives on because now obviously there are forensics and pathol pathology departments in lots more schools everywhere.

Yeah. Surprisingly, many states still use the coroner system. Interesting. Which is really, really interesting. Yeah. Obviously it's better now than it was. Yeah. It's just been really slow to die. Mm-hmm. So Francis died in 1962, in her eighties inside of her house, the Rocks. But she has [00:43:00] been, she's since been recognized in so many articles in publications in her lifetime.

She didn't want the renowned, whenever an article would approach her, she's like, I don't want this to be about me. Yeah. I want it to be about the field. Mm-hmm. Of legal medicine to raise more awareness. And then whenever, uh, like one time, I think it was a Time Magazine article, they wanted to put the picture of the diorama in there, and then they wanted the whole case.

Mm-hmm. Oh, and she's like, no, that will ruin it. Yeah. If anybody can read it. That ruins the seminar. She's like, she was very like, no, this is the purpose. This is what we're doing. Yeah. She really stuck to the cause. I think actually it probably helped her to write down all of those goals because don't you feel like when you're trying to accomplish something, having the vision clear from the beginning Yeah.

Prevents you from a lot of decision making later. Mm-hmm. It's kind of a no brainer. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that was a side note, pep talk, so she's still like, obviously there are still. Um, things written about her. These nutshell studies are still used today in forensic science. Yeah. They are still on display for the [00:44:00] officers to use in those same seminars.

Mm-hmm. They've been restored, of course. Yeah. And the Smithsonian had them on exhibit several years ago. Mm-hmm. So on the Instagram page, there's a person on Flicker who went to the exhibit and she took pictures Yeah. Of a lot of them. And she allowed us, she allows people to use them. So thankfully, because otherwise, yeah, there's no pictures.

We could not picture, find UNC copyrighted photos. I'm like, I'm pretty Snoopy on my right. My Google, like Library of Congress had nothing. Smithsonian had nothing like not even the Chicago, I checked the Chicago library website. Right. Nothing. I was like, bro, I know. And you know, you have to be careful when you're posting photos.

You can't just use any old photo. I think people think you can, but you can't. A lot of things fall under like copyright law. It has to fall under fair use. Right. So it's like, ugh. And that's hard to find. Yeah. So thanks. Laurie Shaw. Also, you can go on YouTube and a lot of people have put. Um, videos of the entire Oh, things.

I don't know if they did that legally, but whatever. So I screenshotted some Layla so that you can describe them to us. Okay. But describe [00:45:00] this room. Okay. Left to right, right? Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh my gosh, this is the bedroom scene. Dang. Okay. Left to right. Well just, just, so, just show, tell us what you see. Okay.

So it's a, it's honestly a really cute bedroom, blue wallpaper. There's two chairs in there, but. No, there's only one like desk, which is weird. Oh, interesting. There's a woman possibly. Can I say dead? Yeah. Okay. Dead on the bed. And a guy dead on the floor. They have blood on them. Yeah, but the blood's like purple.

It's kind of funny, like I noticed all the other pictures too. The, I don't know if it's like just aged. Yeah, aged like that. Yeah. There's like blood splatters going out the door, but yet the two chair thing is weird. Like, look, there's. There's one sewing machine. Oh yeah. And then there's a chair over.

There's a second chair, but nowhere freaking go. There's a sewing machine. That's a sewing machine. Cute, isn't it cute? Really cute dresser too. Not what this is about. Okay. Swipe to the next one. Okay. Tell us [00:46:00] about that one. Okay. Lemme see this one. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Very cute. Beaded. Look at that.

Lampshade. Beaded. Yeah. It's cute icon. It, it's a bedroom seam again. Um, there's a shotgun on the floor. Mm. Chair tipped over on the side. Her room is a disaster. Where's the, where's the deceased person? Laying in a bed, but there's no blood or anything. Oh, she's covered up. Yeah. Like she's sleeping. Yeah. Room is a mess.

But then there's just a gun on the floor. Maybe. Maybe its a robbery then. Yeah, there's a bottle of beer. Oh, but then all her like perfumes are still in her dresser, so it's like, Hmm. Window open. Ooh. Right. That's a window open, right? Yeah. What do you see in the mirror? What's in the mirror? In the mirror?

Pictures. Oh. Like there's a little, oh, funny. Yeah, I do that too. Okay. Swipe to the next one. Okay. Oh my gosh. Okay. Burn victim. Where's his teeth? Oh yeah, another bedroom. Another bedroom. But only like half of it is burned, like just the bed is in ashes. Hmm. But then like this [00:47:00] whole corner's fine. Yeah, I'm sure not fine, but you know.

Yeah. I think that's a body, but I could be wrong. I think so. I see the pajamas. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Anything to suggest arson? Oh my gosh. Do you know about the guy that started those? There were like these big fires in California and they, this was in like the seventies. Oh yeah. He would do like three matches in like a pocketbook or like a piece of, I think you told me this story, and it turned out to be the, yeah, it turned out to be the police commissioner.

That's insane. Like the, or not the police commissioner, like the arson guy, the Fire Invest ARS Arson investigator. The fire is the arson investigator that originally worked on the case. It was him the entire time. I watched like an hour and a half long YouTube video that on it. That's crazy. I wonder how they finally found him.

It was crazy. I mean, caught him crazy. I know. Well, it was because they finally gave a task force to these three guys, or like two guys and a girl, and they figured it out and they finally figured it out. Wow. Crazy. But they're proud of themselves for that next one. Um, okay. His fit. Oh yeah. He looks dapper.

Is that a dog? He looks very dapper. Yeah. There's a little dog. He's got beer next to him on the ground. Uhoh. Um, [00:48:00] all again, like no blood. There's a furnace. Is that a furnace? What is that? Yeah, like a wood stove. Like a wood stove. Yeah. Um, two chairs. This one's kind of boring. There's nothing like, no more clues.

Let me see. No, here. Look, there's a, there's a. Oh, the dog's still alive though. I know. That's sad. Newspaper. I wonder what's on the newspaper. 'cause I guarantee it's real. Probably telephone. Yeah. I don't know. There's like no blood. That one's hard. Yeah, that one is hard. Okay, so you can stop there if you want, but there are 18 of these still in existence today.

And you can, like I said, go on YouTube and see them all and we will put what pictures we are allowed to put on the Making History Podcast. Instagram. Instagram. Oh, this one is scary. She has, there's a woman on the floor with a knife through her stomach. Yeah, she's exposed. She's partially exposed, blood all over her head, and another dog, yh and a hammer nearby.

Oh, that's not a dog. That's a table leg. Oh, that one. I don't like that one. The barn. I don't have one either. Okay. So I hope you guys have enjoyed this. Um, you can find us at [00:49:00] pin Cut. So studio.com/podcast and at making History podcast on Instagram. Mm-hmm. You can also find me at pin Cut. So on YouTube, Layla, tell 'em where they can find you.

You can find me on Instagram at Layla Jane Studio and on my website layla jane.com. Yeah. Layla's for hire, I'm for hire, art and editing and a little bit of everything else. Yeah, she's a Jack Jane of all trades. Jane of all trades. That's funny. I hope this has been fun for you guys. If you have seen this exhibit, I would love to hear from you in the comments on Instagram.

So, and definitely it really helps us out if you leave us a five star review wherever you're listening to this podcast. And, or a nice comment if you're listening to this on YouTube. Um, we really appreciate you and this has been really fun for us. So yeah, stay tuned. For next month when we will, I think, be talking about the Kentucky Derby Derby and the Fascinators.

The fascinators. Yeah. So yeah. Bye bye.

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